resolve carpet cleaner

General discussion regarding Kawasaki disease
tammyb
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resolve carpet cleaner

Post by tammyb » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:30 pm

is there anybody that cleaned there carpet prior to there child getting KD with resolve carpet cleaner,my son was at my moms an 2 days prior she cleaned her carpet with resolve cleaner, and with in a week i was at er with muy son he was diagnosed with KD he had every symptom if there is please let me know either way i feel that it has something to do with carpet cleaning hopefully there is someone working on this

Nancy
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by Nancy » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:04 pm

hi

All of the KD researchers I am aware of long ago discarded the "carpet cleaning" theory :)
It was originally in a 1982 article in The Lancet..and was never able to be replicated !

Saying that a child played on a newly cleaned carpet and later became sick is faulty logic...similar to saying my child drank apple juice and then
developed KD...therefore, apple juice causes KD.....IF carpet cleaning were a cause of KD...we would see an epidemic !

And on a personal note...I have no carpets in my house (husband's allergies) and my son had KD at age 7 yrs and not been anywhere with carpets !

Many researchers think that some children have a genetic predisposition to KD...and that it is "triggered" by something...a common virus, a bacteria, etc
and the child's immune system over reacts and the symptoms we call KD develop...
It is that "trigger" that the researchers are busy trying to identify..but, they are not spending time on the outdated carpet cleaning theory..

best,
Nancy
mom to Jason

rbabyn
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by rbabyn » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:53 pm

I must agree with Nancy about the genetic predisposition.

Also, the carpet cleaning theory actually had to do with a certain antimicrobial deodorizing agent found primarily in Bissell carpet cleaners. So, I don't think any random carpet cleaner would cause it. I am; however, amazed by the number of cases that are preceded by carpet cleaning or exposure to carpet cleaners in some form.

My daughter developed a terrifying bout with KD approximately six weeks after having our carpet cleaned, but our ID doc told us the same information that Nancy stated above.

I am thankful for ongoing research. I just wish that they could find out more.

gapno14
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by gapno14 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:44 pm

When my daughter was diagnosed in 1995 carpet cleaners were a big part of the study. The Health Officials at that time were looking for a common ground. I do remember them mentioning this virus may have entered through the feet. And yes I did use dry resolve carpet cleaner. But studies could not confirm or deny this as a cause at that time. They were also interested if I lived near stagnent water. What i think they were looking for was a common ground. Kawasaki being a rare virus ,can have many factors contributing to the cause. For some reason I remember them mentioning that 13 children in Denver came down with Kawaski during a short time frame and they were using their input also. I have been reading all that i can about Kawaski over the years and and very pleased that my daughter was diagnosed and treated by a doctor that only saw 1 other case of this.

lcullen
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by lcullen » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:22 pm

I actually also played on a recently cleaned carpet when I got it back in the 80' at age 6 (I am not 65). My brother and sister were there as well and I am the only one that got sick. It does strike me that there are a very large number of cases that share the recent carpet cleaning story and it is true that I can't help but wonder if there is some sort of link.

kpm
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by kpm » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:50 am

Approximately 1 week before my son was diagnosed with Kawasaki's he had ingested a small amount of resolve carpet spot remover. My son was 2 1/2 at the time and was spraying it in his mouth. I never even considered the connection until I read more about Kawasaki's after his discharge. Although the experts dont think carpet cleaning triggers Kawasaki, it is coincidental how many children were exposed to recently cleaned carpets.

award
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by award » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:30 am

See the soy post--we diverged and discussed carpet cleaning as well.
It isn't the specific TYPE of carpet cleaning that is the issue--it is something about any type of carpet cleaning that seems to be at play although no one has been able to figure out exactly why. The new York and Colorado studies revealed a very obvious correlation despite never ferreting out the actual cause. The studies are at a standstill so they are looking at genetic predisposition now.
April

markgw
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by markgw » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:39 am

Seems pretty clear there is something to carpet cleaning. Maybe the carpet cleaning chemicals themselves, but I am aware we are predisposed to overlook other possibilities due to our already ingrained suspicion of chemicals. It may be just the fact that the carpet becomes damp, perhaps sparking something else into life. Our son contracted KD while sleeping in a damp, manky carpeted room.
Reading the comment above is exactly why I have developed something of a distrust toward the culture of medical research over the years... When research funding is funneled into projects that start to smell a bit stale, in-spite of promising leads, usually what follows is a hasty retreat to the safety of genome research, open ended as it is, looks impressive and is difficult to criticize. But what help is it? Then the medical authorities decree "It's not the carpet cleaners" and we are supposed to just submit to that.
I dont know what has been achieved by the contributors here (apart from the very valuable information provided to the recently affected families), But it would certainly be interesting to see what the effect on rates of incidence might be if it were made mandatory that warnings were placed on all 'wet' vacuum cleaners, cleaning chemicals and commercial cleaners that All children under 5 years be kept away from carpets until completely dry.

award
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by award » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:23 pm

That will never happen--warning labels in association with wet carpet. If big business won't change their practice when it comes to putting BPA in plastic, particulary plastic baby bottles when it is highly associated with carcinogenic/cancer causing properties--then no one will care about a very small percentage of the population getting KD in association with wet carpet. IN fact, in one study done by the plastics council, they used mice who for some reason, were resistent to the affects of BPA in their study to "prove" that BPA was harmless. Yet repeated studies by outside researchers found that BPA was clearly linked with prostate and breast cancer in mice as well as precocious puberty--you see, BPA is very similar to estrogen. But I digress. I simply meant to illustrate my point that anything that will cost big business money--using safer practices or warning the public, will just not happen. If they warned people, some who are more paranoid will not clean their carpets at all and this will impact the bottom line....$$$

The New York study showed carpet cleaning with powders, large spot cleaning, steam, chemical, sprays, etc. It didn't seem to matter how it was cleaned, just that it was cleaned and this is why researchers figured it must somehow be related to agitated dust mites, yet that didn't pan out either. They commented in that study that with the one family having 3 episodes of KD after cleaning their carpets twice--it was just too coincidental to be coincidental. They were frustrated as can be when they couldn't figure out why and had to drop it--I spoke to two researchers, one from the New YOrk study and one from the Wisconsin study--it seemed an obvious correlation to them yet they couldn't prove why it occurred and had to give up.

The genetic studies seem to be on to someting, but you are right--it's not like they can warn people based on genes--you cannot test everyone for one obscure disease in order to keep them from getting it. This disease is an incredible enigma. Glad you got to the bottom of the precursor though--now you are in the same boat as the rest of us, still clueless as to why. Frustrating to say the least.

April

SandraP
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by SandraP » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:43 am

My son became ill with KD after we had carpets cleaned in 1992.

markgw
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by markgw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:18 am

I do agree April, my comments about labeling were of the "in a perfect world" variety. Where huge corporate profits are at stake, human well-being will always take a back seat. The most recent example I have read about is how mice on a diet of GM grain are rendered sterile, but these research results are kept from being publicly reported because of the unprecedented profits that stand to be made through control of the food supply. To the point where apparently, Monsanto have gone to the trouble of constructing their own court system.
Regardless of the cause,I wish I could convince you that, in spite of my completely irresponsible fool-hardiness, perhaps through blind luck, I might have stumbled upon something. How about this for reasoning... We know that in biochemistry, only a fraction of the many naturally occurring substances can be prepared synthetically, and then, usually low-grade replications. Keeping in mind that it is only very recently, some of these naturally occurring nutrients in our food have been isolated and recognized as vitally important to health (omega 3's for example) Isn't it possible that in broad spectrum, nutrient dense carrot juice, something or some combination of things may exist (perhaps yet to be recognized) that provides for the KD victim on a cellular level, the tools to deal with the crisis occurring in the body? It's not that unreasonable is it? I have to go back to the scurvy example, If it was still a mystery today, would we be experimenting with fruit and vegetables or pouring millions into research and scoffing at the notion that the answer to that deadly illness could lay in the humble orange?

Momcat
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by Momcat » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:53 am

I'm still trying to figure out a couple of things with your theory.......first of all, did your child really have KD? I've asked 3 times, did your child get a first and second echo to show the arteries of the heart???

Secondly, is your theory regarding the antioxidant or anti-inflammatory properties of anti-oxidants, or flavonoids?

There is research that shows luteolins (a flavonoid) in carrots and other vegetables have properties that do affect the vessels, However, in this article it says that luteolins inhibit angiogenesis (growing new vessels from pre-existing ones). There are arguments for flavonoids use in anti-cancer treatments because they can help reduce the means that cancers have to metathesize--by inhibiting angiogenesis. Perhaps this is the theory you should propose to researchers----what is it that carrots have (flavonoids?) that may help the inner layers of the coronary arteries during acute KD? Are these characteristics good for the vessels at that time or not?

Would your theories be better tested with individuals and trials to be proved or disproved? I think the risky thing you have here is an assumption, that could possibly mislead innocent parents, and your disregard and suspicions of science and medicine in general. It seems like you are stuck in a catch-22. You can't prove your theory without unbiased medical research. Even the "natural or organic" research is biased. There is a lot of research about the effects of vitamins and minerals regarding our bodies. That is where a lot of research begins, with things already known......

I can understand your frustrations, be it from the other side. While our daughter was in the hospital she met a 7 year old girl with Ewings Sarcoma. They became good friends. The little girl had lost a leg and had numerous surgeries and medical interventions that were horrific. She lost her life within that year. Later, I watched a TV segment regarding a cancer specialist on the east coast. She had been given samples of a new drug that were targeted for Ewings Sarcoma patients. The doctor did the study with the new drug and found it eliminated the signs and symptoms and most of the kids (if not all, I can't remember) survived. The death sentence of the horrific Ewings Sarcoma was stopped dead in its tracks with the new treatment. Sadly though, because the manufacturing of the drug was so terribly expensive for the drug company to make and because there are smaller cases of a Ewings Sarcoma than other bone cancers, they could not produce enough of it to make enough money to justify the manufacturing of the product. I think there are more cases of Ewings Sarcoma each year than Kawasaki Disease if I remember correctly. I was stunned. They virtually cured Ewings Sarcoma through research and then they couldn't or wouldn't market the drug. The specialist was devastated also as she only had a few more vials of the drug for treating just a few more children and she wasn't able to get more. I remember some amount of hope dying inside of me regarding KD research, even though it might prove entirely different for a cure for KD in the long run. I haven't given up all hope regarding KD researchers though. I respect their work and know that the people working on KD are good people and are not motivated because of financial rewards or personal fanfare. It is difficult to even FIND funding for these projects and studies.

Many people are skeptical of the medical establishment and drug companies and they probably are right in some aspects. However, to stereotype or spread the blanket of suspicion over the whole lot is unfair also.

Here is an article you might find favorable to your own beliefs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1914 ... d_RVDocSum

Here is something regarding purple carrots:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1914 ... d_RVDocSum

award
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by award » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:40 pm

Momcat,
I think that is one of the most well thought out, two sided, and interesting replies I have heard on this site to date. You have alot of life experience and research that I find helpful. It is interesting how different the three of us are--you, me and Mark but we seem to have alot of the same thoughts about things, despite our stubborn and opinionated personalities. I often look forward to seeing what Mark has to say as well.
Mark, I am done discounting you for the carrot juice issue and I wasn't correcting you or thinking you were naive when I replied to your perfect world scenerio of reporting wet carpet. My cynicism was coming out, that's all. Big business and me have parted ways. I am the classic California "tree hugging liberal" although in truth, I have never actually hugged a tree and I hope that most here will forgive me this and look at my earnestness to help others instead.
I have no idea if your child really had KD or adenovirus or something else and he just recovered or if the vegetable juice inexplicably cured him. As for other natural methods such as Omega 3's, well they do have laot of excellent properties but to my knowledge, we have nothing natural to date that will rapidly cure something inflammatory such as this. I have now been on this site long enough to see that your thoughts on this won't impact that many vulnerable or naive parents. The fact remains that most people come here AFTER their kids are diagnosed and treated and there are so many new posts every week that your original one will be toward the bottom, like mine are, and not likely to be read anyhow.
Momcat/Sandy, I too was flabbergasted that big business would avoid making a cure for anything that could save lives because they won't make money--but we have many disorders like Ewing's Sarcoma that are not likely to bring in big profits. It really is almost unbelievable though. YOu ahve to figure that with the profits they DO make on so many other products that they could swallow the cost on a few--but which ones to choose? In any event, I guess we have a stalemate about the juice but agree on alot of other issues. You will rarely hear me say that something CANNOT be or work--I have an incredibly open mind after all the years in nursing and medicine. Maybe it did have something special. We will never know. Unless like me, you go back to school to prove your point--maybe a master's thesis on Carrot juice and inflammation??

Momcat
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by Momcat » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:45 am

April, thanks!

I think I posted that one research article twice and this one not at all:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1843 ... d_RVDocSum

I'm not going to think our kids are cured with carrot juice, but thought if someone was going to push the idea they should have some basis to have the opinion rather than just swallowing the stuff. It just takes looking up material, these articles are a far stretch, but I am sure some naturopaths use this sort of research to promote their products. I remember attending a seminar in Berkley once on "natural" pharmecuticals. The companies that push "organic" and "natural" substances have virtually no one to regulate how the product is made, how much of each ingredient is in each bottle, how the product compares to other products from different places, etc. Maybe there are more strict regulations now---this was several years ago. The money to be made by these companies is staggering also. They talked about how dried substances of the same plant or material is vastly different than tinctures in properties and strengths, etc. Just because something says it is natural or organic does not mean it is prepared from pure products or that no chemicals were ever used around it. The flocks of people, especially now with the "green" movement, that flood funds to these companies are doing nothing more (in my mind) than the people begging for prescriptions from the same type of huge companies suctioning in millions of dollars yearly. They are paying for products that may be made anywhere, by any standards and by anyone. Yes, the regulations by the government can be burdensome, but they are also meant to protect us.

We all have ideas about the causes and "cures" of KD, but all in all, we are just on the far, distant outside looking in and commenting. The specialists have their hands full and really can't be too bothered by all our speculations. However, the long term issues are something they can hear about and it is good to listen to some newer members that have had KD in their pasts. Of course I am a bit more concerned about that part of KD.....the risks we face with our child are many and I'm afraid they increase in probability as time goes on. Yea! God is in control........I certainly can't handle it well myself.

I don't like the thought of giving parents false hope. I do like it that we can share ideas, even though some of us find others postings close to ridiculous at times.......at least it is a free place to post and to submit thoughts....so far!!

markgw
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Re: resolve carpet cleaner

Post by markgw » Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:41 am

Oh gosh, where do I begin. I'll start at the end and see how close I get to the beginning.

"The companies that push "organic" and "natural" substances have virtually no one to regulate"
- no argument here, wherever there is a dollar being made, my overactive suspicion kicks in immediately, But carrots are only food. In fact not only are they food, but they are one of the cheapest foods. No profits to be made there (although, to be fair, the proper juicers are an arm and a leg)
"I have no idea if your child really had KD or adenovirus or something else"
- April, did you see my post responding to this ? I had a bit of a read up on Adenovirus and would have to say It looks unlikely. Apart from suffering every known symptom of KD (up to the point where it vanished), The pediatrician who was head of his department at the time and familiar with KD, confirmed the diagnosis which was supported by two colleagues. Even if the KD was a misdiag. I'm sure adenovirus would not have slipped their notice.

"other natural methods such as Omega 3's"
- No no no, this was not involved, I merely used it as an example of a recently recognized, naturally occurring substance, the benefits of which were until recently, unknown to science. Pointing out that, despite appearances, Scientific knowledge is far from complete. My point being that sometimes things just work, long before the science can explain why. Two great physicists whom I admire greatly were Isaac Newton and Max Planck. Both, in their humility, were quick to point out how little they really understood. Linus Pauling, who won two Nobel prizes for chemistry, was widely regarded as having lost the plot among his peers, when he began suggesting (without 'scientific' evidence ) that vitamin C held far more potential than it was given credit for. One of my favorite quotes comes to mind... "The brilliant are full of doubt, while the stupid are cock-sure of themselves". Worse still, as you have pointed out, science has long since become a business like any other.

"I'm still trying to figure out a couple of things with your theory.......first of all, did your child really have KD? I've asked 3 times, did your child get a first and second echo to show the arteries of the heart"
- You don't need to figure these things out, I have posted details about these things several times. We continued to return to the hospital for echo's until the specialist told us it appeared pointless to continue.

"Secondly, is your theory regarding the antioxidant or anti-inflammatory properties of anti-oxidants, or flavonoids?"
- I have no theory. We gave the boy carrot juice, and whatever the heck is in there, knocked the KD on its backside.

Other concerns in your posts relate to my belief in the +ive effects of carrot juice on inflammation. I don't know of any such effect, I do know KD has a very -ive effect. I suggest that carrot juice has an effect on KD not inflammation. I am postulating that (supported in personal observation) some constituent of carrot juice has a profound effect on the progress of KD, halting it's progress before it is able to reach that stage. I understand that in Momcats view, the process that leads to arterial damage is already in progress at the onset of KD, but that does beg the question, why bother with IVIG if the outcome is already determined?
regards, Mark

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